Symbols of the world's religions



John A. Grant

Meher Baba was interviewed by a journalist named Smith from the Australian Broadcasting Commission on this Saturday morning [56-08/11]. The following conversation took place with Eruch interpreting Meher Baba's gestures.

Eruch: Baba says: Intellectual conviction. It is not necessary that we should have intellectual conviction, because it doesn't help at all. It is just dead. After intellectual conviction, then there must be another step of having a conviction of sight, and then that conviction of sight also is to be superseded by having the actual experience of union with God. Not necessary that you must be intellectually convinced.

Now here is Francis Brabazon. He is a poet, but suppose he is illiterate, he has not read anything. He does not want to read anything, but he knows one thing; he has heard somewhere, somehow, that there is a certain thing named God. And with that he is convinced that there is God, and I must see God. I long to see Him. Therefore he is longing to see him. He loves Him very much, he is like a fish out of water. He loses his appetite. He has no sleep. His only part is to see God, and he does see Him, without having intellectual conviction, because he is illiterate. But his heart is not, heart wants to see God.

Now here is another man. He says he has read much, he is a very intelligent person, he has heard much. He has read much, and he is reading continually and then through reading he gets intellectual conviction. He is convinced intellectually. He says, after hearing and reading all this, I am convinced there is nothing but God, but this is only intellectual conviction. This man who is intellectually convinced, has no love for God. He is simply convinced through intellect.

He I am, Baba says. For example I, Eruch, have studied much, read much, I am continuing to read, and hear much. Baba's book God Speaks, I have read it and am convinced that there is God, and God is the only reality. Baba says, I also have heart to love. Intellectual conviction is there and the love is there and the longing for union with God, therefore that love and longing enables me to attain my goal. So Francis, suppose, who has not read anything. He is not an intelligent person. He has not intellectual conviction, but he has got heart. Here, this gentleman, intelligent, intellectual conviction, no love, no heart. I, Eruch, who am intellectually convinced and also have heart. As myself, Francis also attains the Goal. He can see God — become God. Here this person without heart, only intellectually convinced, he can never see God.

I who am intellectually convinced and also have heart, I can see God and I can make others also see God. Whereas he who has only heart, realizes God for himself alone, and does not help others. So that is the difference. Do you follow what Baba is saying?

Journalist: "When you speak of love sir, what do you mean when you speak of love?"

Eruch: Baba says: What is love? Here is my Beloved and I love the Beloved. What this love means, is to give up everything — wanting nothing in return. I want to give, make him happy, pleased, even at the cost of my own suffering, my own pleasures. I just want to give, and make him pleased — happy. That is called love. Lover prepared to sacrifice own life for Beloved. The sublimity of love, wanting nothing. Worldly love is also love, but some selfish motive; possessive love. The love of world, man for woman, woman for man, is a speck of love, it wants something.

There are degrees of love in Divine Love. Wants union with Beloved, but when that love reaches its zenith, it does not want anything, not even union. No question of possession or wanting. It is giving.


PRACTICAL SPIRITUALITY, pp. 35-36, John A. Grant
1985 © John A. Grant


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